diff --git a/zone/expedition_database.cpp b/zone/expedition_database.cpp
index d818200f6..1f7bbdeb7 100644
--- a/zone/expedition_database.cpp
+++ b/zone/expedition_database.cpp
@@ -261,8 +261,8 @@ MySQLRequestResult ExpeditionDatabase::LoadMembersForCreateRequest(
 					AND lockout.expedition_name = '{}'
 				LEFT JOIN expedition_members member ON character_data.id = member.character_id
 			WHERE character_data.name IN ({})
-			ORDER BY character_data.id;
-		), EscapeString(expedition_name), in_character_names_query);
+			ORDER BY FIELD(character_data.name, {})
+		), EscapeString(expedition_name), in_character_names_query, in_character_names_query);
 
 		results = database.QueryDatabase(query);
 	}
diff --git a/zone/expedition_request.cpp b/zone/expedition_request.cpp
index 5013d49a4..1b8f5170b 100644
--- a/zone/expedition_request.cpp
+++ b/zone/expedition_request.cpp
@@ -113,8 +113,9 @@ bool ExpeditionRequest::CanRaidRequest(Raid* raid)
 			SystemName, m_max_players, "raid", raid_members.size());
 	}
 
+	// live still performs conflict checks for all members even those beyond max
 	std::vector<std::string> member_names;
-	for (int i = 0; i < raid_members.size() && member_names.size() < m_max_players; ++i)
+	for (int i = 0; i < raid_members.size(); ++i)
 	{
 		member_names.emplace_back(raid_members[i].membername);
 	}
@@ -149,8 +150,6 @@ bool ExpeditionRequest::CanGroupRequest(Group* group)
 	{
 		m_not_all_added_msg = fmt::format(CREATE_NOT_ALL_ADDED, "group", SystemName,
 			SystemName, m_max_players, "group", member_names.size());
-
-		member_names.resize(m_max_players);
 	}
 
 	return CanMembersJoin(member_names);
@@ -181,7 +180,7 @@ bool ExpeditionRequest::CanMembersJoin(const std::vector<std::string>& member_na
 	// maybe it's done intentionally as a way to preview lockout conflicts
 	if (requirements_met)
 	{
-		requirements_met = IsPlayerCountValidated(static_cast<uint32_t>(member_names.size()));
+		requirements_met = IsPlayerCountValidated();
 	}
 
 	return requirements_met;
@@ -373,7 +372,7 @@ void ExpeditionRequest::SendLeaderMemberEventLockout(
 	});
 }
 
-bool ExpeditionRequest::IsPlayerCountValidated(uint32_t member_count)
+bool ExpeditionRequest::IsPlayerCountValidated()
 {
 	// note: offline group members count towards requirement but not added to expedition
 	bool requirements_met = true;
@@ -381,12 +380,17 @@ bool ExpeditionRequest::IsPlayerCountValidated(uint32_t member_count)
 	auto bypass_status = RuleI(Expedition, MinStatusToBypassPlayerCountRequirements);
 	auto gm_bypass = (m_requester && m_requester->GetGM() && m_requester->Admin() >= bypass_status);
 
-	if (!gm_bypass && (member_count < m_min_players || member_count > m_max_players))
+	if (m_members.size() > m_max_players)
+	{
+		// members were sorted at start, truncate after conflict checks to act like live
+		m_members.resize(m_max_players);
+	}
+	else if (!gm_bypass && m_members.size() < m_min_players)
 	{
 		requirements_met = false;
 
 		SendLeaderMessage(Chat::System, REQUIRED_PLAYER_COUNT, {
-			fmt::format_int(member_count).str(),
+			fmt::format_int(m_members.size()).str(),
 			fmt::format_int(m_min_players).str(),
 			fmt::format_int(m_max_players).str()
 		});
diff --git a/zone/expedition_request.h b/zone/expedition_request.h
index cf1151771..edfdd6122 100644
--- a/zone/expedition_request.h
+++ b/zone/expedition_request.h
@@ -59,7 +59,7 @@ private:
 	bool CanGroupRequest(Group* group);
 	bool CheckMembersForConflicts(const std::vector<std::string>& member_names);
 	std::string GetGroupLeaderName(uint32_t group_id);
-	bool IsPlayerCountValidated(uint32_t member_count);
+	bool IsPlayerCountValidated();
 	bool LoadLeaderLockouts();
 	void SendLeaderMemberInExpedition(const std::string& member_name, bool is_solo);
 	void SendLeaderMemberReplayLockout(const std::string& member_name, const ExpeditionLockoutTimer& lockout, bool is_solo);